The Agile Manifesto: History and Evolution With Co-Authors Arie van Bennekum and James Grenning



welcome everybody I'm sitting here with James grinning in arif Amba nakum both of them co-authors of the edge our manifesto and it's a rare occasion because it's not very often that we have two or more of the co-authors of their edge or manifesto so James are we like to know what was your reason to participate in their edge our manifesto what's the something specific that you wanted to make a tip well do you know where the agile manifesto was held you don't mind me asking you a question back to you yeah in I know it was an American in Snowbird and do you know what Snowbird is no it's an amazing ski resort so I've just tell the truth as I always do and this topic I went to go see you had a great time with many other people I respected that I was learning a lot from at that time nice it seemed it says skiing on the mountains the the weather was perfect and there are known worldwide for their powder and they did that disappoint we were snowed in for several days and snow came down there was avalanche conditions beautiful okay great and re were you there for the scheme or did you have ulterior motives yeah I had another motive I was I was working in Europe as you might know very much involved of the dsdm community and we were sort of chapter organised and we were thinking about bringing a chapter into North America and Jane Faulkner was actually has an apartment in Snowbird was supposed to be the chair of the chapter in North America and he just came called he knew about the sessions that we held and said can you bring some morning and then Mary Hansen from the DCM for social networks she gave me a call and at that moment in time if I had an opportunity where I could talk about these deals with different ways of working or focusing on the interaction instead of on dopamine streams I took the opportunity so I did the same thing Robert Martin and I have been friends for a long time for maybe you know the 20 years before that and we were working together at the time and we're learning a lot from camp back toward Cunningham Ron Jeffries Martin father in every relationship with them and so the opportunity came up to go hang out with them and it was at Snowbird so it was like a very easy decision in 1999 that object mentor we had came back demo leave the test-driven development and it struck me is an amazing thing that's like we could actually write software in this incremental way and tested as we go rather than planned it all out right at test it later the day after seeing can't do that I went back to one of my clients I was something with design instead of trying to find ways to write code sooner and it started test-driving our code was called test first program and at that time it fit really well with the design principles and knowledge which we had an object mentor about Martin's company that felt really good they fit really well with that so I started coaching the next Monday and I refer you what was what was for you before the edge our manifesto and what was your Park and what was it off to us well I would like to take it from James already said about testing as we go I was like to my career 1987 as a developer was doing this work as on let's say on a Dutch governmental agency in 1994 and I got upset about the way they worked and you can see the waste of money while we were doing it no failure there so failure as being my driver the question is how do you know he didn't tell you I got an opportunity in mid-1994 to start working with a method with a team in the pilot of the Royal Navy called rapid application development and this is where we sort of developed testing as we go but then on the value side so close collaboration with the actual business sitting side by side in regular session yes this is really helping you because in you know the stories where we live today complex situations complex solutions having a detailed designer from this almost impossible or isn't possible so this is where it started for me and I would be an upset about the waste of public money trying to find different ways of doing it there's a lot of common sense and I we were just talking about it before he interview in the late 80s I was pairing didn't know we called it Marian but I was probably because it made sense to do so but it got most started in 1994 and on I got actively involved in the communities replication development application developer user groups they were together only need electrical to use the emulator that is the end community on behalf of the SDM community I was participating in session in Snowbird and since then it has been continuously evolving journey for the last 15 years ago how can you do how can you help organizations to become hotel because in my opinion if you were at the ceremony way to survive the future where change and the pace of change in innovation is only increasing in everything in it and it took an insightful of camp back at work opinion but well you know once you have it you start to change it so keep it at dealing with change we're trying to make people freeze their ideas of what it is and it became very evident well you said free to look at design work that way and I think like you I was working with a company who really valued thinking about software rather than actually writing it they would waste a whole year yeah they were kind of shocked that we could actually do something meaningful in two weeks I close I remember leaving that meeting and we kind of all thought well you know oh yeah Ward said that he would put it up on their website somewhere and you know I thought was no one's gonna care and and it started to grow and kind of surprised me but it grew we know that is right and I think we we started something and remember that I was to be presenting a full community there were a lot of people already trying to identify how can we improve what we do we're not there yet and what I hope is that people see this as entering the world of continuous improvement to change instead of the past it was okay but for this sound yet qu8 manual so this is how we work one fixed state and then okay now that we're there so we're going to do the next big state the next is not a big state it's it's a mindset where you going to contain certain continuous improvement and I hope people get this rationale that this is what's needed to make it successful I'm I'm sort of four still surprised by the like people who try to make it into the next state of how we are yeah I'd say that's that is kind of ugly the core of Angela's improvement yeah and what the wind is doing is following a new dog dog I saw a statement from it's supposed to be for me it's intuitive it was in one of my clients on the wall and he says perfection is no mistake perfection is an ambition and if you want to read television you have changed a lot so being perfect means that you've changed a lot and what I see is that a lot of people you know that give themselves a new position in theater what they tried to do protect it from chains as much as I can and this is where we go wrong so I hope we can get a few kamakiri manager yeah I think so now this is something you see every day with you going from waterfall to agile all from trying to introduce new ways of working new methodology is this a psychological barrier with some of the adoption are there anything that you know you have any advice on how do you overcome some of those things I used to think even really days of bringing this stuff to systems engineers or any engineers was if we just show them we could convince them like my job was to convince someone whose good idea pretty quickly discovered that I couldn't convince anyone what I had to do instead is think of me and what appealed to it to me and as an engineer what I want to do is I want to know what problem I'm solving and so to get people interested in something like test-driven development I had to describe you know why you might want to do it what problem that you want to solve there's a lot of different positive benefits and you might get but one is what probably trying to solve and then in my I work what I try to do is give people opportunity convinced themselves so I can't convince anyone but I can set up a situation where they might be able to experience the things that they can convince themselves and so I think there's this natural resistance people think they know how the best way to do something they would learn something difficult to do programming is is not an easy thing they've learned how to do it then you know what's wrong with how I do it okay what nothing but maybe you could what you've learned has been important do you experience these problems are chasing defects or dealing with bad code yes I do well then maybe you're just trying something else if I might add to this because you know you in the late 90s you do couple of projects at the same clients that same client is always in trouble always running late always unhappy business so you don't keep each other up everybody happens so you think I guess one is one so the next one they're going to do it like if you have to fight to go for the same certificate and I thought why why why is this happening and later on I found out if you go to a teleworking there are a couple of things that are really a paradigm change you know paradigm is perception they're one of the perceptions for example is testing something that you do at the end just an example and so many like documentation stand decision-making processes how many you countless managers decide on what requirement to take into a solution marriage is never use a solution it's the people you know that so ask those in so the big problem in networking paradigm shift and a paradigm shift is extremely difficult because I found out that paradigm change takes one and if you go into me where he's working all paradigms are there and all paradigms define your reflexes on the six so people before you know they're your greenie ain't change and then they go back with the u-turn and effect or whatever and now today with the technology you have less and less time to go back to where you were but the paradigm changes a difficult as well and there's a lot of pressure on people to keep delivering the way they always did nothing to learn and improve and we don't spend some kind of improving you could go into training but you can do it in the evening hours on your own time right yeah yeah learning is part of the daily process with retrospective continuous improvement yeah and actually being part of just you know each other yep now tell me what do you think is the future of Edgehill yeah we do you see it going well there'll be a continuation of labeling what you do today with the word agile in front of it that prevalent form of agile okay and I have some evidence of that much I'll give it my talk today yeah but unfortunately there's an okay some people are going to discover actual change and the core NGOs can hear its improvement but unfortunately I think I think that's a subset in hurry for you well what I think about paradigm change it'll be that you need to become analyzed as a part of the razor as an organization so I think the future well in the future Intel is not the word anymore in a 5-10 years now sort of a baby so dude there will be a lot of old paradigms in existing organizations old organizations and I think a lot of those old organizations excuse my language they will die and the young organizations that are not suffering from a lot of you know paradigms they will they just emerge and and survive the future that's why so a general become sort of a stewardess generation hit up the current practice has to die so the new practice can happen yeah washing hands for doctors I think that was an example of that well thank you both for joining us and I'm gonna update my CV to be agile interviewer and thank you everybody

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