Novels On Screen 29: The Tin Drum

hello and welcome to the screen spear podcast I'm mark I'm Sara we have the list of 100 greatest novels and instead of reading the books we are watching the films instead like move I'll do that again hashtag live hack so we have we've had a little bit of a em a few weeks off actually it's been a few weeks since our last episode yeah because actually it takes a bit of time to watch the film it's just watch the films take it all in yeah this one's one of those occasions yeah so there are some more unusual ones on the list this is number 29 I believe we're gonna say now the cat might be quite present because I've got food around so we'll carry on right so I'm a few news updates there's been a while nothing groundbreaking where should we start let's start with the name of the Rosie you chief I just every time I just despair last week you know a user called John the humanist and he just put you are Puritans as a comment I just hate everything I just hate it off I hate that it's up that I dread it is popular and but another kind of more serious note I'm serious you know War of the Worlds yeah we talked about all the worlds probably before Christmas yeah and we said oh yeah it's gonna be on in the new year it's gonna be on at Easter you know so the BBC war the world still hasn't been shown no so I was reading an article the other day mm-hmm perhaps about this so the production there has been a production delay uses all the effects and the company was doing all the special effects I had to be redone or something for whatever reason or they're taking longer so it's been two years since the BBC announced this two years and then they were saying in the same article that I was reading that since the BBC one has been made and delayed that American one the one film to Toys R Us has like literally like been put together and made and is coming out so they probably do out at the same time now no and then the American one the Toys R Us one that was filmed near US servicemen and that's got um you know the lady in Downton Abbey not like the old the one that's married to Hugh Bonneville yeah yeah she's in it she's not in it yeah I can't remember her name hmm she's not even a lady what's her name in I don't even know her name in Downton Abbey no like the oh yeah not remember now we're talking about she's really famous yeah she's in those stuff so she's in that war the world so and that's a another good reason to watch it she's an American one yeah so I want to see both of them and now sorry I'm eating curry as well I'm sorry I'm sorry carry on all right so that's that's you know a bit of a an update on that because we haven't mentioned that for a while that's it that's it yeah so now it's time to get into our book and our film for this time yeah this time we're looking at the tin drum which I kept calling which hm but in Manhattan boy he tins in it's the tin drum mm-hmm a 1959 novel by a German writer called Gunter Grass Gunther Gunther GU nter Gunter good not good intervene to dress wouldn't a good ass to grass into grass should call him ji-sun nicknamed gg gg gg gg won the 1999 Nobel Prize in Literature really yeah so he was born in a country chord or this is where it gets complicated already so he was born in Danzig which is part of Poland but it used to be kind of sort an independent it's kind of between kind of Poland and Germany it's like sort of in between that's interesting because that kind of lighters that is where this book is set yeah as well so he the tin drum was his first actual novel yeah and it was a bit controversial at the time mm-hmm and it's part of a trilogy set in this Danzig where he was born and grew up so there's a tin drum then there's a follow up called cat and mouse and there's a follow up called dog years and in some of it the the same characters kind of follow through so I was trying to find out about so this so Danzig is now part of Poland nowadays but the kind of the treaty that kind of started World War one all that kind of stuff it got it sort of lost in between so it was mainly kind of german-occupied at the time obviously because he's German and his so Gunther mr. Gigi that Ginter his it's a very very kind of political stories this book is told in the first person by the net main character Oscar which we'll get to when we go through the characters it was called kind of blasphemous and pornographic at the time mm-hmm the book and because that because of certain elements in it it's not it's it's fiction and there's kind of this kind of magic realism to it a little bit like you know Midnight's Children that similar to that where it's this story with this war in the background and then this is kind of magical weird kind of fantasy element yeah partly dark and weird so this is a bit darker than Midnight's Children you know but he's he's known some people say that he's a kind of a the same you know magical realism doing right so we shall see now which I didn't really realize it yeah yeah I see that okay so I see it in the film back and know well kind of I think the book in is a lot there's a lot more to the book yeah yeah exactly yeah she really the case yeah so Gigi yeah all GG wrote this book so why didn't I never heard of this at all no item nope and there is only the one film adaptation yeah what a film it was yes indeed so we watched the 1979 trim oh yeah yeah yeah um 1979 and yeah I'd like to sincerely film you can understand why it's quite an iconic film really it won an Oscar good map Academy Award yeah yeah then that was Best Foreign Language Film yeah and it was the highest-grossing German film of the 80s 17 th mm so it is it's a is a German made film yeah subtitles yeah yeah and probably the best subtitle film with watch because I'm comparing it to Genji yeah how many subtitle ones have we done Ginji this this that's it I what the only other one what was the one that we put subs like old crash because we couldn't understand what they were saying and I didn't if that was in that doesn't I wish I was gonna say oh there's another one where we read the subtitles yeah that doesn't come we just to know what was going to surprise we haven't done any more so far yet um and then but yeah very controversial so is the lead character is this boy who so the story is it were very brief but well just very brief but basically he decides that he's going to stay young so lots of you know right now but the actor was 12 that's yeah the lead actor it's 12 a.m. is 12 I'm very short yeah doesn't like that was something I read up he doesn't suffer from like any syndrome it is just very short but there's a lot of sexual scenes and he is in them so his character decides to stay young but gets older yeah that makes a weird so he decides I'm going to be three actually he's 30 yeah it's like he lives as a three-year-old yeah so he does stuff as a thirty year old what I'm sure he's not he's 21 she did suppose a 17 18 year old sorry would but he's three but actually count the actor plane is 12 and he does quite sexual things as of 17 18 year old boy you would yeah but it's also 12 year old doing it and it was quite a controversial film and it was banned in Canada and America so yeah for child pornography which I totally see what it is I mean it's not but I can see why well when we get to that bit will discuss that yeah yeah it's all cleared now and stuff it's not like you know but at the time it was a country it was a controversial book but also the way that the film was yeah yeah yeah was very yeah yeah so the film was directed by Volker Volker Slumdog Ashland of slender slender coastland off yeah and he a German director and he also directed the 1990 film version of The Handmaid's Tale which was the yeah that we mentioned that in our episode sure to watch that so he doesn't shy away from controversial obviously and when mr. GG the author so he wrote this in the 50s yeah well late 50s and he had loads of offers to make to make this into a film and the way he says that he refused a lot of the time because the way that people wanted to make it they want me hey I was reading because of there's an interview with him talking about this they they they didn't get the right vision that he wanted they agreed with he wanted the child character to be like a child and they wanted to turn it into kind of more of a sort of evil dwarf kind of character they get a little I think a bit more add character a bit more adult yeah I haven't been a child which was the intention of the story so when he spoke to Volker Volker schlund or for director Falk he they kind of agreed on the vision so Gigi helped Sean we will call schlund director to kind of write the story and edit and adapt it right so he gave us he gave the right he was like I approve with this I give you the rights yeah to make my book into this into this film tourism it's a lot of the author's vision is in this I think as well okay so let's so we watch this right let's just get our first impressions yeah because we didn't know what was going so actually I had I had a little bit more of a background in it because there's a audio play there's a rape BBC did a rail yeah version which I heard some of right iDEN I hadn't heard all of it and I I knew that he was a child that decided not to grow up yeah thing and that it was set in the war but I didn't really know anything else I knew nothing and it's it so the book is narrated by Oscar that this child character yeah and the film was also narrated by him and you see it's all supposed to be through his eyes yeah and we start off before World War one yeah because he's saying when his mother was born so it's going right back to his grandmother and you see a bit of a story yeah you said that way a little bit like again now I'm talking about it like mean those children we shouldn't even think of at the time yeah but you go back because that starts off with his history and he talking about it he does he yeah yeah yeah we start fortunate don't we I'm there's the fit with the grandmother is a bit odd already it starts off a bit strange yeah something about she the grandmother gets pregnant she's peeling potatoes right she's peeling potatoes in a field in Germany like a farmer's you know at a farmer kind of thing and there's this guy on the run from whatever political thing was happening at the time yeah these soldiers are after him and he runs up and he's like hide me so she hides him under her seven skirts I think it's gotta be yeah yeah because like it's go there's a thing about how many skirts yes because he says it later but however many skirts yes but he she hides him under all her skirts so he gets like under hula skirts yes it's there I then soldiers are coming along saying have you seen this guy and she's like no I mean like putting some faces she's like this way and she pulls some weird faces and then it's sort of implied that basically he impregnated her in that moment shall we say yes so basically yeah under the skirt is happening yeah so that's your opening scene so already I'm like okay what if we got ourselves into already through this yeah and did you notice I mean this is this DVD release it's being like cleaned up and all that kind of stuff so it looks really good on them yeah but they were certain bits you know where you get like cine film and it sort of speeds up and slows down a little bit and he sort of goes a little bit I didn't notice there was that I don't know maybe it was my eyes adjusting I don't know but there were certain bits where it's kind of filmed in that kind of cine not like home video but sort of like yeah straight weird way another effect I was also wearing sunglasses maybe they did in the hair no but it's slightly sped up and slowed down really kind of so I think it did that when it was kind of flashback moments maybe a show that I think I'm not sure where it was just our eyes my eyes your sunglasses are my bad eyes didn't help no so you see then the mutt so then you flash forward a little bit would skip a little bit it goes to the mum the mother yeah and do we see her we don't really see her childhood or anything it's way ahead the mother then up we'll see then the mother has to what she to Lover's basically chesty she has her husband and then there's this a cousin a cousin who it you see them kind of together yeah and they both kind of know yes so it's not it seems to be like an open thing so they're not like a rich family or anything they're just in this in this german town yeah it's quite a normal family all kind of around the table together and then Oscar is born and he is and then you see him on his third birthday yep and also it's not made clear who is Oscar's father no so thinks it's the cousin but then Oscar he's narrating so I think he's saying I think it's my third birthday I think he's my father kind of thing it's yeah he's saying isn't he and so that's how it's implied yeah it's not really but I think it is obvious I I thought that you thought it was yeah – no I also don't know he is not hundred percent clear yeah I think that's almost appoints as well though like it's not actually clear because that's all she forms that sort of relationship yeah but maybe that's the point there like it is kind of that messy their relationship they're not even the son is clear maybe that's the point anyway is own so in the background of this you've got the beginning of kind of the Nazi yeah the party kind of coming into power yeah a lot and I think one of the is it if a father or one of the uncles his part is bad is is in he's you know in the fool kind of Nazi yeah yeah he's getting into the party I think his greengrocer as well yeah yeah Nazi cream crow started like us like regular people who then got into going through the pole so there and it's kind of like brexit here isn't it so it's all people who like you know regular people who then get involved in the politics of it won't change because he says very early on – and that's the other thing as well this cousin is polish oh yes yes this is where you get there and as the Polish host on this yes is in the in the town yeah no comment and he works for the Polish post office and he says to him you need to decide you're gonna have to decide soon where you sit I mean are you German or polish yes he says like well I'm polish doesn't he and that's sort of that's very early on it is before like anything big happens it's not like it's sort of like at the very start of the whole no I'm really like the the whole point of it yet you've seen the background you've seen the the whole of like the war building up and through the war it's a flew Oscars eyes that is the point of the book yeah it's a tiny thing yeah it's little kind of background things within the family and things that people say yeah do and in Oscar the main the first kind of main point is on his third birthday yeah well two things happy yet sat in drama yeah and he loves his tin job and he's always going around drumming this yeah comment like pasta Khalid syndrome and he goes through all these if not when he wears out they get a new one and he or he has a tantrum if he doesn't get his drama yeah and he just drums the whole time which would be the most annoying he now wins is the most annoying child to things like so well no he just decides just need that he has decided that he's going to stay three years old you see a he looks like that all the families around the table and he sees that and you see him from his point of view you being in there and they tell you sooner than you eaten the race doesn't he like that is the moment I decided I don't want to be an adult yeah so the cellar door is open and he decides to check himself down the stairs yeah basically yeah that's quite like that scene as well quite scary it's quite like true it's like a truth not know about horror but Rama wasn't it Yangtze and boom not so this this is a 12 year old boy actor yeah he proper like you see and the way the camera like follows in doubt knee yes blam Bloods it doesn't hold back no I know I like the whole yeah it's pretty mmm yeah and just got yeah horrific accident yeah yeah yeah yeah it's like I tell you what's weird like not weird but scary about it one he looks freaking terrifying he looks like yeah I mean yet he's got you look like a certain face I'm sure he was chosen to because he looks a certain way yeah and like his whole height thank you and the way he dresses because it's obvious era you know I'm like this all that sort of thing but also it's the calculated nosov it I think that's what I find really scary about it she nodded as in like like you see in like him figuring out what's it called here's Johnny the shiny the shining like what's scary with the shining is that almost a calculated nurse on it yeah that is the same in that little scene it's almost like the the knowing of it yes I mean there's not because he narrates a lot and stuff yeah there's not much dialogue no and not see there is no dialogue or anything you know what's gonna happen yeah and you see everything and it's quite a long yeah it's a long thing with no dialogue or anything you know exactly what's gonna and it's really calculated and I think that's why it feels really disturbing as well yeah it is isn't it and everything smashes on the floor and you see the blend of reactions of the adults they're like yeah yeah are you witnessing this she did and the reality is he could die I mean there is not a guarantee that this child unless is where it gets weird because he says right I'm he does that because then he that's his excuse so he says right I'm I'm now not gonna grow past three years old yeah I'm gonna stay like this so if I throw myself down on the cellar floor and I'm in hospital or you know yeah I have to recover that's the excuse I'm gonna give the adults yeah it's gonna be a strange medical thing that the adults can't work out that why I'm not growing up that's why I'm yeah and that will be the excuse but it's all sort of implied that he can just do that yeah yeah anyway that's the weird kind of fantasy he's made that decision like if he was a Midnight's Children that would be a special power you know yeah that's what I mean it's like the calculated nosov it yeah I find really yeah don't that mixed with I kind of the scary look in the faith oh no no it's creepy because it's a try and so all completely yeah so then that's one thing and then the second skill he's learnt is his scream yes I think so basically scream can shatter glass and it's a proper again winner of the most annoying child imagined a child that screams and bangs a tin drum just constantly a tin drum and if some tries to take his drum with him he's screaming like all the windows in the club smashing yeah stuff and this is high-pitched like yeah until you give him his drum back yeah and like switch teacher in school tries to take his drum off him and he screams and shatters her glasses oh man what her ears bleed yeah yeah it's you know it's proper it's like a horror film and he chooses what you can shut up yeah I mean you know he's like Annabelle could easily write this as a horror yeah it's like you know demonic child type yeah completely yeah yeah it's um yeah yeah it's very strange so that's like that happens yeah we know these two facts about him yes and there's lots of a if it happens but like in a nutshell that's all we need to know about like there's all these innocent other surpluses happen this is a certain thing so his mother so he works out so his mother is it's sort of having an affair with the cousin yeah and he finds out he follows he follows that and then sees them through a window kind of having sex so they goes up to the tallest building in the city and like screams and then shares all the windows in the whole of the building and so this glass falls down until you know like the horse-and-cart and stuff so yes it's very powerful yeah yeah yeah so and then as things carry on so you see the relationships with the family the war is kind of starting to take yeah the Nazi Party is yet any more and more powerless like rallies and things happening so I think that's what you've just mentioned dad though that is the first it is kind of like there's three big moments in this film okay I'd say right um well no actually really say five you're like it's quite it's quite a long film yeah yeah I'd say this is five so the first one is I'm just gonna say the mother yes so first one is he goes to the circus oh I forgot about that yes so the first thing is he goes to the circus and sees all this stuff but he sees another small person he's an actual like adult dwarf yes and he goes so tortoise and this dwarf says I know you're one of us and he goes not to use that how old do you know he's that on 12 and he was like ah you made to say you're one of us and he's like you've got a Talentum yeah why don't you come with us and he was like no I'm fine with my life right now and he's like oh it's you know I'm basically talking it's like a basic translator might come with us and like live overseas are no no I'm fine with my life right here and stuff right now when he was like well you know where we are we need to stick together and things are changing so that's like the first weird that's all weird scene because there isn't talking like he's an adult yeah but the parents the family always treat him like he's a little child yeah and then he goes up when he's having this serious chats you know about yeah yeah life and stuff but he's just he's like this kid yeah yeah really yeah isn't it that's the first big one yeah the second one I would say so have all Hotel thing that we've just mentioned the mother have the affair yeah from the back of that the mother finds out she's pregnant yes I like oh it's all coming back now so because this is like basically we go through the three things that are yeah and then it the conclusion right so the mother finds that she's pregnant and the father is the cousin 100% and she's got this she's completely wrapped up with guilt from it which I think would imply that actually his dad is his father in my opinion well I don't know because there's these sort of things I'm doing a bit of reading about this as these themes of like sexuality and hmm she says she eats her guilt she's so like wrapped up in a guilt she starts eating raw fish yeah and she can't stop eating raw fish yeah and you see her just that stuff in her face yeah the parent zone of shop or something yeah yeah she's in the shop window and she's just stuff in her face and she Oh horrible yeah yeah yeah and then well then she the guilt builds up so much she it's implied she kills herself yeah yeah it is yeah she wasn't at all and she yeah she dies yes all we need to but it's implied this years herself and it's it's implied to some extent so the whole thing as well is that weirdly it's on his name okay Oscar Oscar it's implied that Oscar is part of the reasons for all of these things happening right so like his involvement is part of these he's around all of these situations so the reason so like the reason that she having this affair is because they go to that town every week so go and get the tin dress go to the toy shop to get my new tin drum yeah yeah and so that's when she goes and I see some flowers and stuff and he goes and he goes and like dis trips that and stuff yeah and I she was more than five but like I've remembered every one but so I forgot all the battle that yeah yeah and and because the mothers always like there's a lot there because the mother is there's that scene where they're on the beach yeah with so there's the mother the cousin I think the father and Oscar they say you know day out on the beach yeah in Germany and there's a fisherman yes and they're like oh what you've what you caught there kind of a thing and he's oh I think that he's catching eels I think there's like an industry of like eels in that area because he's kind of quite rural out there and he's put a real horse's head yeah the bait and he drags out this horses oh yeah and it's full of eels and they're coming out the eye sockets and the nose yeah I mean she's 100% Vince that is a real horse's head in there that is not because they're real ills they are real meals and that is and it's and she's throwing up yeah mother sees this horrible plane and she's throwing up and then the cousins like comforting her but he's caught of like touching her up on the art yeah it's being sexual it's always with her it's all implied this morning like it like this is not a morning thing this but you're kind of that as well but there's that kind of correlation between like sexual it and my fish and stuff like yeah and the fish I don't know if that's in the book but that's kind of definitely in this film is really weird so then the husband buy some of these fish takes about she is complete and to calm her down the cousin got texture in the bedroom and basically are sex with it yeah and she's like a mind upset Oscar can watches the whole thing yeah that's so bad yeah and I'm this there is another scene with eels and they definitely definitely chops him up live and they yeah i'm maxeen Oscar eat them yeah yeah and because you were like vegans better not watch this for I was like yeah they're real like I think they're all real I think it's AIT's a 70s I bet it's all real okay that's a real horse's head and they put I mean it's so that is just the worst thing I've seen what I was expecting no I know I know anyone was I think probably did that though in those times oh yeah yeah oh it's just horrible that all the yields coming out of his eyes and stuff yes Graham so accompany with this film is only a 15 I know we can't get over so anyway so the first one is the mother dies yeah yes then the next one is the cousin so there's and this is implied as well historically that this battle was the first was the start of the Second World War right yeah historically this is what it's implied as and it's a fight between the Nazi Party and the Polish poster fees name stuff happens in between I like this like him where he starts like and he does syndrome Inga and that'sa rally in basically he goes around drumming a lines yeah yeah we're just talking about like key yeah it's yes so he the uncle works at the Polish post office and they're told not to go inside an Oscar runs in because he wants a new drum because his is broken and he knows this one inside see he runs in and the cousin they after him is looking after him obviously runs in after him and they go inside and the cousin is like handed a gun and they're like we're shooting where the post office is under siege so now they're stuck in there because in there and he suddenly given a gun and he's like we're fighting and just suddenly just because my real lights or not it's now fighting against the Germans like that is the decision it's made and that is Oscars fault because he goes yeah yeah yeah if you hadn't have gone in there yeah yeah there's also sorry if we're just going about one little step the toy shop that they go to if you remember oh yes so the owner of the toy shop is Jewish yeah who eight stopping parties in love with the mother yeah I knows that she's having this affair and stuff they still in love with her and and he goes to the funeral to pay his respects and he's turned away because he's Jewish and his toy shop gets mark radios I'm raised area and he kills himself mmm and that's really sad and I just sort of that's an indication isn't it of like he ends up like yeah because you've seen at the start of the war and all these things yes going to happen yeah and that's kind of grown yeah you see the start of like this actually a very kind man yeah who the family knew but you don't see you see it as sort of like because Oscar then goes to the toy shop and what Oscar does then is just goes in and gets another drill mom yeah that's all he does boxing gets no Bertram walks out so all of this happens and that's all you see which I guess it's the point like to us it's like wrong thinking child but that is kind of the point of the film is he's just the three-year-old well you see a child's eyes yeah I see a selfish yeah I think I saw a selfish because of that circus scene how come because I think that circus scene made me realize that he had a lot more sense to him the sense of the world who knows a lot more than oh yeah excuse me it's a very seldom it's yes it's a very selfish act so actually this the whole of his choices now are selfish they do you sing yeah everything is selfish he's not a likable character absolutely not on hit you're not on his side this cuz she what he's a bit scary yeah and you don't know what he's gonna do next coming like three year old quite something yeah the point is he's not three by their niece Blake you know 12 12 13 in his teen teen yeah and so he he is aware of stuff and he knows that he's he selfish we made this choice he knows that conversation at the circus he he has a very adult conversation he has a conversation with an adult and at Jays like he has a very adult conversation that's kind at the point you have an idol if they have a conversation on level yeah and then he goes like no no I'm gonna stay here it's a very adult conversation and I think after that I was a bit like oh you're a dick because well he is because you just sort of go like are you yeah I think after that you he's no longer a child to me he's a selfish person and he's I don't know if he's deciding not to because he if he would have grown up he would have had to fight in the war or he would have had to be part of this but he's choosing he's like I'm not having any of this I'm just gonna be a child banging be a child whatever but you from a self-conscious point of view he's making selfish decisions a three-year-old will not have a sink capacity of understanding all things as a 12 13 year old doesn't know he's a 12 13 year old making these decisions you might the body of a three-year-old and like choose to make make out to be a that's the whole point like that you said he chooses for himself downstairs so that the adults believe that yeah because in his mind he is older because as we learn later when he's like once that when he's sexually attracted to things cuz he's like 17 18 whatever yeah that's in his mind he is of that so anyway it's a selfish thing so he goes into this post office is business like this cuz nice going after him I know that I'm fighting yeah end up fighting is just sitting around hiding around and then you watch more about 10 minutes of everyone be massacred in there yeah and and there's a team in Germany just wants to get he's trying to get everyone together and some ghosts to reach for it and get sharp yeah I mean that's all very graphic yeah machine people be machine yeah gunned down left right yeah I knew we get like him anyway they all die we had the loser loser battle as it were and they get taken out and you'll get shot they'll get shot on the cousin dies yep please his father he'd I think he does say yeah that's it yeah yeah it's his father yeah been shot yeah yeah yeah so that was jamming that entire thing they told he's even that when they're told not to go in yeah that was an entire that entire thing is a complete his fault selfish fact this I mean this is quite far in the film we've seen quite a lot happen with the mother and every on this and I thought actually that could be a sort of end of the film at that point I feel like the next is like the next chapter the next and I think actually this film might cover the first two books in the trilogy and I feel like that is feels like end of book one sort of thing yeah yeah because then we go into a whole nother phase of his life yeah yeah which is so he's living with his well he's far back he's far those it were and I'm his father struggle it's not really explained that this yeah so the father is no yeah this is like the third well the third big thing I think is the father is struggling to cope because he's Green Grove and he's got this three-year-old selfish child playing the drama playing the drum constantly so and like a ten drum as well it's not even like a proper drama no tendrils are the worst noise so the grandma finds a girl who's like sixteen I wasn't really clear yeah she turns up on the back of a milk carton yes hi I'm here to work for you yeah and I think it's like implied to like she's from like another family and she's looking for worldly yeah looking for work and she's gonna come and she'll never help look after ask her and help in the shop yeah what I know she's called Maria Maria a girl by Alfred to run his store so the the father has a store yeah the greengrocers store yeah and actually yeah I'm just looking this up sorry that's the beginning of book 2 yeah yeah does this how watches no I think she's like I think she's 16 seven change Dean yeah I think she's 16 she's 16 17 yeah because he is 16 yeah he says about 16 he's the same age I know that the passage of time is a little bit he did say she gets off the car and then I think it's a few months later or something yeah she's settled in straight you know in so time does I think he's 84 would quite basically decides that she is his first love yeah yeah and he's absolutely infatuated with her and they and she sees him as a three year old cuz why wouldn't she so she's almost like a substitute mother in a way yeah and she sees herself as that she sees it yeah yeah does CSS so she takes him to the beach she a day at the beach yeah and she like they'll share like a hurt to get changed in yeah and this is the weird you know this is the scene where yeah so they get you might reverse no hang on the sheet she puts into bed at night and things to it yeah they sing yeah and she's going up the stairs one day and she he says to her how old are you and she says like I'm 18 yeah or something like that because then he says I'm 18 and she goes are you and he goes yeah yeah yeah exactly because then yet they're in this hurt they're in the heart getting changed yeah and so then will they take their clothes off getting changed yeah and then he sees her no he hit and looked at her and the sherbet thing we've had all the show but only as its apply it's implied well if the way the film I'm in it for just show me to explain it much okay so basically the way so earlier on it sort of it they have a shirt named it that was what we had to look this up but yes it's like this powder you know like you get like sherbet powder yeah but they put it on the hand and then they go up into it yeah and then like it fizzes up and stuff yeah they lick it and it's like but they proper go up into each other's hands and like lick it yes gusty it's so it's kind now this is the thing it's kind of sexual I need Terry's sexual thanks for one of those really weird gray areas I think because and I'm feeling really controversial even saying I do because it's one of those things where I think Jim what she's so close to the family Jeremy she sees herself as his mother yeah and I think a mother wouldn't think twice about it no did you know what I mean yes I don't think a mother would think twice about like a kid holding on to something and her looking it up you know I didn't like not about when they first messing around the thing is as a viewer we are watching this knowing that he is in love with her yes and that is where it get this is where the gray area is yes so we're seeing it with a completely different thing we're seeing him gob into sure that hand I'm seeing and so it's really weak area and then you've got the added complication that the actor is 12 and like she's bought about 20 probably the actress young I think she's about 20 yeah I think she might be 20 21 I think yeah and he's 12 and they do and they're acting this out as well you've got that literally gobbing into our hand you see this happen Slick's and now let's see what that's just disgusting yeah yeah yeah anyway so so they're at the beach heart so you see that's her in this beach hut and and also this sherbet thing when we read it up it's like you to have it if you didn't have a lot of water around it was like help so she has it understand yeah I think it was like if you were short on water and you'd have it it was like her because I thought you meant there got bin because they haven't got enough water yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah apparently from what I've read and I could be wrong so I'm happy to like hold my hand up hip and what I read it's like if you didn't have a lot of water around I didn't goodness on where it was a flavorings its flavored but you'd add it and it like help to hydrate you okay sugar glucose yes it's like a glucose powder just help hydrate you basically she's on the beach she won't be asked to move and see she uses a glucose powder ain't kind of becomes their thing yeah that's that so they use it later so like like she's in bed and he gets out a little glucose powder and they do it then in back it kind of becomes a little and so it's sort of implied like that's a thing that's a thing yeah but that's why she does it on the beach okay yeah yeah cuz yeah I was like what the hell are they like we both we were like what the hell is this I know I was like why I think you've got it stopped so we have that and so I'm just gonna say it because I don't think you can so basically they're in this beach then a cage she's gets her clothes off he sees her funny eyes go like why does anything it's like a magnet and it just goes on it sure does he no no no so that happens later so he literally zooms and runs her funny and puts his mouth round it is just no and we were like something like what that like we were both like ah and just to be clear you don't actually see her fanny no wait is that the way it's film but you see his face in front of it yeah so you don't actually see it so in terms of like controversy of the film you know they're not making the actual 12 year old go near a real funny you see looks very close to it I did yes but for we know there could have been like a fake you know I'll be honest I looked at that I really wasn't sure I I don't know I think maybe it's clever is basically why I'm just making clear yeah in this film and I don't think they made know him go that near it no no it's very close very close look at it and you genuinely think that is what you asked yes like 100% and it's so it's really weird the way he's I keep we've already said he's got like a expressive face but and then he goes that's the thing that's the way yeah yeah she like pulls him off doesn't she slaps them obviously I shot but she like gets out yeah and and then I can't remember there's like a brother gap so anyway is yeah and her and I don't remember I think she's like this can't happen yeah yeah but some like ah then mmm then the dad no no no we haven't missed a bit then she she's in bed so it's implied so sorry she's washing her Fanny out no no no no no you missed a bet you've missed a bet you sure yeah I'm sad oh no yeah sorry so I'll just continue you definitely miss the video I have so he goes almost to apologize I think with the sherbert yes female sorry let's do this fun gobbing thing again yeah and so they do that and he puts the shirt but on her fanny you see a head under DVA yes under the duvet yeah and with the shirt I knew we pushed everyone a funny at some point yeah it's just know yet that did happen to yeah so then it's sort of implied that like he has sexually and that's important I think because it's implied that something sexual has happened with them I think that's important to note because of later so yeah then we find out he walks in and the dad is having sex with her yeah and and then he walks in with his fucking hindrance drumming yeah to try and scare the dad but what he does instead the dad instead of pulling out ends up ejaculated into a girl yeah and getting her pregnant yeah it she's like I can't believe you and then they have a massive argument via and that is why she's washing her Fanny out yes and he's she's sitting there like in the kitchen and that's when he comes up and does more sure but on her hand she's like Goff me kind of thing yeah yeah that's when he knows like this is she's not having any of it she's yeah yeah yeah serious yeah because basically the dad is now knocked her up and he's kind of again it's not really well it is it's a dad's fault yeah but he got it's his fault for making them jump yeah we're these freaking sounds yummy situations yeah yes it's his fault again and so she's pregnant she has the baby and he is Oscars convinced that that child is his yes because of enough sort of parallels with the grandmother up the skirt yes at the beginning because he's like kissed her on the fanny he thinks that she's pregnant from that yes yeah so that's why it's important the whole show but I think so so then so then he runs away where so we've had like so we've had like so we notice we've had the mum die we've had the cousin slash dad die we've had his first love and then Maria is pregnant yes such as like first love thing and then we've had and then he runs away with the circus yeah this performing Dwarfs yeah yeah now they've become like quite the Nazi of life so they're entertaining the troops yeah and so he's off with them for like two years doesn't he entertains the troops and then here we go controversially again so he falls in love with this performing dwarf lady yeah in of the in acting terms is a performing dwarf lady yeah actress mia film yeah scenes with them in bed yeah and like kissing and stuff it's still this 12 year old boy yeah and this I don't know 34 year old door woman but we think it's we think it she's a woman I don't know are all Cheers well I'm just saying she's an adult dwarf actress we don't know she doesn't a little dewy oh yeah she doesn't she's not child okay we've seen a look like a child not true but then he doesn't look 12 so then their scenes roommate odd yes soon that happens and it suddenly looks like it's the end of the wall yeah well so he comes back home to visit well no no no it is it's comes the end of the wall because they're taught to evacuate and performative this concert thing and they're all the truth all the troops are leaving the German troops are leave knife set up kind of camp and stuff yeah and they've all got to leave right yes there get in the back of the Jeep so Oscars there and all the performing dwarfs and stuff this woman that he's been seeing this poor woman she's all done up in her feather feather boa and all that kind of stuff for some reason she's about to get on the Jeep with him she's like she's like smiley should go go go yeah so Oscar like she's dead happen in the book I don't know funny but he goes back to the family and the baby is now three and that's in part because he says to the baby like I'm your dad he's not sort of like what they saw when the robbers yeah dad it's a bit yeah he thinks he's a duck but he got no and he's like actually his brother yeah and he's like when you're three I'll give you a tin drum and you can decide if you want to stay three or not and I'll tell you how yeah and so he comes back of a tin drum and gives it to the kid yeah and then there's a big like obviously the end of the Nazi Party and they've got to get rid of all their Nazi stuff so they're getting rid of all the things again short version he Oscar kind of does his father in and ends up like making him jump and they'll chew him is the quickest way I can explain that remember does that whole thing with a pen Oh anything yeah yeah he makes him swallow the pain yeah because he doesn't want to be revered as being a Nazi yeah yeah so in he hasn't put the black on the pin so it's sharpen it yeah can cuts his throat and so they think he's like being strange to the shooting so he's dads now well yeah it's dad's dad yeah and so he stands over this grave and he's like all my family are dead I should probably grow up grow up now I can't remember what happens but like how but he hasn't he as a fall or something doesn't he yeah so during the father's burial Oscar decides to grow up and throws his tin drum into the grave yeah as he does the brother his little brother throws a stone at his head and he falls into the grave yeah so you fall since the grave and hits his head yeah and then that's and that's his and then he grows up so see and then they start noticing that he's growing yeah and so now he's growing I mean doesn't simply become an adult but he's his bones are now growing so then he decides to head off yeah head off away and travel and live the rest of his life the rest do you see him off on a train at the end yep I mean that was a lot and we haven't even gone into like all of the details there main points so just the highlights as it were and actually there's more the book doesn't stop there the book carries on so in the book he carries on he goes to düsseldorf where he models in the nude and works engraving tombstones so I'm glad the film finished so I mean it was it's long film yeah lots going on lots happening yeah not particularly likeable what was the most likable carrot I mean he's not a likable character we've said I'd say the cousin was the most likely well I liked the cousin Oh in the shop owner I mean the mother is quite no I mean there's all this fish in heels and stuff I didn't like the mother because I don't like her morals right okay yeah oh yeah cuz she was going off and I mean like just choose one yeah just choose yeah yeah sure and but I liked the toy shop owner yes and there's not many people in this to like no and I think that's almost kind at the point of the story well I think this whole thing about the syndrome I think the drumming is supposed to be represent or symbolize like resistance yeah yeah to the war into society and all this kind of stuff because I think mr. Gigi the writer was very yeah left-wing character growing up yes he you know so that's why he's banging his tin drum I also was reading about there's someone set a review saying that yeah okay it's a interesting film but you only get you only get what you what is intended out of it if you know the film if you've read the book and you know the burgh then you will see those it's interesting to see that on the screen but if you just watch it as a film you probably don't get as much out of it in terms of the story or what it's trying to say yes it's a weird film yeah it's got that kind of quirky yeah nature to it yeah but you don't really get that I think they say there's certain bits of dialogue and certain references yeah I only get if you know the book yeah yeah I can imagine which is what which I won't only followed it and we have yeah pretty much followed what was going don't think like we've been able to highlight things and I think that's because quite often when you have these sort of bear in mind a film is generally just highlights of a book yeah yeah and we've been able to highlight a film yes so we really have been able to like pick out key moments I enjoyed it because I knew it was going to be kind of controversial and there's gonna be some you know what's going on watch that I wouldn't choose to watch it for enjoyment again I don't think no I'm glad I can serve watched it yes and I'm glad I have watched it it wasn't like wasn't painful no it was I mean it's not like crash or anything where a reason where was I again but it's it's sort of getting towards that category where it's a bit it's interesting as a war kind of film do you know what it's it's funny when we first watched it I was like and since I've gone away and now we've come back and talked about it I kind of feel a little bit more at ease with it yeah you know I like it almost needed a bit of like space yeah I needed some space from it I think it's one of those that like I needed I needed some time yeah you need to process it yeah yeah I'm actually I liked it a little bit more than I thought I did when I left out after watching it if that makes sense yes it was when I left here like we were both just a bit like what the hell is going on yeah afterward actually when you have chance to go and think about it yeah it wasn't it really wasn't as I thought would be a struggle yeah it really wasn't no no and actually for all its controversies I quite like something a bit controversial we're not oh yeah I mean it's quite used to that now we are yeah I do he's quite fun watching cons around so I didn't think yeah I mean it's I can see why it's been banned and insane things in it I think like I just too much but like like the whole scene with like you don't need all that with the the I get why if that makes sense like I I think like that whole beach hut scene yeah yeah sure I get why and it'll have been in the book and I get why I just didn't need to see it I imagine the book is worse yeah exactly I just didn't need to see it I can't think of a way around it when it's in I need to save what I need to see what it is and you need to and that's important that's a character of your moment I shouldn't need to see it but there's no way around it um but yeah I liked um I liked the background to it mmm in some ways I do wish I'd been able to just maybe spot and I don't know whether this is just me and because I'm British where I've been able to spotted more of the buildup of the the war yeah and the Nazi Party and a lot there is but when it's obvious right okay like it was like this is obvious Jonah I mean it was something like and now I'm in my uniform and now there is a war yeah I know wonder whether that's because if you were German when this was filmed and where it was you would notice these things more going on because yeah I didn't really pick up until he was in the full uniform yeah yeah yeah that's when you knew I didn't realize he was in the part that yeah other was in the party until he does a lot of things like to I mean but like as a British person there's you know yeah yeah exactly I wonder whether that could have been word that but I think that's just because I'm British I want time it's a German film exactly so maybe a German person watching this and knowing the history of that would have in the same way I guess if we were watching something of saying London in the war yeah we might have spotted seen them like I don't know and maybe things like built subtle trenches Simotas or yeah kind of thing ready to build her office having problems or something yeah lighten up like the the black couch things this yeah I don't know you might we might notice the background yeah that we now necessarily know yeah okay I don't know but it was yeah and it's weird we've done quite a few more things yeah recently so we could put I know we've got our you know like the Marvel Universe in Marvel Cinematic Universe yeah we have we have the screen spell Cinematic Universe so you've got Oscar in his German town yeah you've got in France sweet Francie Germans invading that village Guam where else you've got a total of me from atonement on the boat on the beach so what's her name from sweet when she escaped she could have met Robbie she could have you could have had the German soldiers from sweet thing he could have met Oscar in the town could have what other German what other that's that that's where wonders where you're going from this there's more that's more set in the war there's something else so in the war don't know okay well that's a start that's the signal and there was a Russian one as well with Anna and yeah yeah but around the same time nothing not well fifty years apart web there we go that's like yeah I'm sure there's mobile ones to come so yeah yeah so so let's just get well let's very so the Mary Whitehouse she be honest how do you know what I so I'm reading her book at the moment incarceration for our special episode well we're doing a special I say we're gonna do what about Mary it's alright I'm gonna learn so much so I'm reading her book she's alright actually she's yes one yeah she's alright I think I see where she's coming from but two yet which is more harsh than we thought I bet so she would not have any of this yeah I mean I mean it's banned in certain places that only got sorted out in like 2001 yeah so no apps well crash was crash worse or not we just had a child it's a child thing making it worse yeah yes twice it happens and then you go down honor with sherbert sweet taste and even comments on it if you remember even comment on a taste of it yeah okay so that somewhat it tastes of and the sure but taste the whole there's a whole transcript on the taste of it so it does be crash in that for me personally no it does what did we give crash I think it's on the same it's a different reason this 10 yeah and also just things like there's a lot of blood there's a lot violence sex I'm a fish and the horse's head but just like I mean like that scene with like the cousin and the moment when he sat in the wardrobe yeah like all the sex stuff is it's like gruesome raunchy it's not even like I can't even explain yeah I mean like it's all in that's quite no no it should be happening it's forbidden yeah it's forbidden in a gross way okay yeah so our rating of debauchery of morals is 10 yeah definitely yeah so how would you rate the film hmm she sat at the same time oh I dunno what I ever really I don't think I've got a final number but I don't even that's gonna say no say at the same time let's have a moment and then when we're ready okay hang on I didn't know nothing I've got it I think I go on okay after 3 ok 1 2 3 5 oh no my quite fun I almost said 7 but I don't think I had to bring it down a bit because I don't think I would rewash this no or not a long time maybe I'll give us sex I just I'm gonna give us did I enjoyed it more than I thought but on earth because 7 we've we've given some other yeah you know we've given I think I gave my atonement or ana Karina or 7 7 like I think of 5 for me I'm gonna give it a sex okay because actually you're right but I enjoyed it a lot more than I thought I would yeah I mean in terms of like the masterpiece element of it I mean this one you know this one the Canterbury Award for Best Foreign Film yeah it got a lot and Cannes gave it the highest you know rise accolade you know yeah the highest thing of that year I've been which I can understand why yeah yeah I'm kind of you know I understand why God the praise that it did from the critics and the as a film you know as a you know look at it from that way but as kind of an audience member just kind of watching it going to the cinema watching it I don't know I don't think I enjoyed it so much I'm like I can't wait to watch that again or oh yeah yeah when we're gonna be in the mood to watch that again yeah exactly I think you're right I think it's sort of like a cross between crash and alito really isn't it yeah I think I don't know maybe a 6 or 7 or something and yeah that wasn't so bad but it's if you can describe it I would describe it between crash and learn yeah yeah no no you know completely five I'm gonna go to five like oh boy yeah I brought you down internally so that's fun yeah yeah Wow okay bye I'm that yeah I'm glad we watched it yeah recommendations well I'd say kind of Midnight's Children yeah in the same if you looking at the same kind of themes yeah structure Lolita for the child aspect of it yeah we're sort of yeah it's more no I did you think he was a bad children's you've got the background of the war you've got the child's life from a point of view growing up family great very much in terms of adultery and cauldron being used in films Lolita yeah for the wrong reasons and I can't think of anything else that exactly like it no I can't it's a strange one it really is and I'm so surprised as not in 18 yeah I know I even with all the controversy at 15 I mean nowadays I mean of you know stuff's charming that was the seventies it was an 18 in the 17 maybe I don't know how I got readin no like and we watch the normal version because on that because it's a there's a director's cut yeah imagine it's is on there I know so yeah I mean yeah I mean I recommend to our listeners too if you happen to have a chance to to watch it yeah I give it a I'm glad I watched it I know I'm not saying that lightly it's sort of nearly almost on its way to being sort of an art how no art house but that space on kick it off yeah yeah okay and like eight days there was a theater version of it of course there was knee-high theater with everyman fear to produce a theater adaptation in 2017 oh the production is mostly sung and features the story from birth through the war and then ends with Oscar marrying Maria no 2017 I mean in terms of this film you got radio baron it's a musical that must be a watered down version he finishes with him marry Maria he doesn't marry Maria doesn't you just say yeah I know yeah maybe doesn't a book maybe there's something in the book where he ends up yeah but you just said you ends up going off and get naked and yeah yeah but no there's so much more he achieves Fame and riches eventually yeah oh so I'm just reading this an OPS's of the bit of it isn't in the film yeah he changed favorite riches one day while walking through a field he finds that a severed finger the ring finger of sister Dorothea who has been murdered is that no oh it gets falsely convicted of murder of course oh and then he's confined to an insane asylum where he writes his memoirs which is the story of his life yeah yes I did read that basically it is kind of written in and I can say I did read that somewhere would you read the book no no I wouldn't there we go I hasn't liked inspiring to read the book oh I've got I did get a snack right now baby bells why baby bells little baby boat they look like the little tin drum that's cute no cheese which I can have I'll have that yeah but okay this is quite a long episode we have been talking for a very long time yeah sorry everyone thanks for listening to this EP if you get in touch if you've got this far if you've got this far and you have an opinion on the tin drum wow that this is a milestone in our list I think do you think yeah what number is this 29 29 29 that's my age so there we go yeah 29 yeah right so yeah you can email a screen spell pod at Gmail find us on Spotify iTunes stitcher oh we're on stitcher now I don't know it's another podcast anything I've registered with stitcher so I don't know if people listening through that one I have not checked the thing but we're on there as well runs thick chested sure and YouTube as well lots of people listening through YouTube actually oh my especially the lucky Jim episode for some reason it's got like way more than any others on YouTube I was gonna say something else but I can't remember what it was it's hot it's all finished now yeah it was about this time last year we did cock-and-bull story which was really hot and that was like a really bad a cock-and-bull I am miserable it was so hot I mean today though I was miserable an episode I just hated it do you remember like I listened to it I a miserable yeah I'm just like I hated this it was quite sure episode yeah I have to say I hated this so there we are right okay well we will see you again soon you

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