FBI NEGOTIATION TIPS FOR SALARY NEGOTIATIONS w/ Bestselling Author & Former FBI Agent Chris Voss



definitely coming on in about 15-20 minutes before then we're gonna go through a show me the data section where I'm showing you data that you haven't seen before about negotiating the money you're likely leaving on the table or that most PhDs leave on the table during the salary negotiations phd's by far more than any other degree PhDs and MDS actually are the least likely to negotiate doesn't make any sense data is going to show you that negotiation is something you should do and you can use to your advantage very few companies will draw an offer for example if you negotiate very few companies are unwilling to negotiate there's money out there for you to make you don't need to be paid at the same level as somebody with their bachelor's or their master's you can leverage your degree to get paid more we're gonna show you exactly how to do that good to see everybody on thank you all for joining for those of you who are members of the cheeki scientists association you are here with us in the zoom chat box you will get to ask your questions to Chris and our other guests here so again thanks for joining us great to see you on alejandra and Amy Brent Brian – Frank Greg jasmine Christy look the rods look man good to see you on mana cherie mario may Natalie Nicole Prachi tobe the sueda Yan Zia great to see you if you're watching us here in the live stream in the group good to see you one too if you're watching this on YouTube good to see you as well so we're gonna jump in to the show I'm gonna give you a couple of free bonuses just for showing up today we'd like to reward those of you who spend your time with us live so we have a live show up bonus that you could only get during the radio show right now when we're live go to chinky scientists comm slash show – up – bonus – 6 19 19 negotiation quick guide don't worry we're gonna put that link for you in the chat box if you're watching the live stream so that you can get this bonus no co2 Co she ation quick reference guide for jeez that's what we are looking at here great to see all of you on again go to this page we just put the link in the chat box get this live bonus it's only available now as we're ramping up to the show Lisa just put in the chat box again shoot the scientist comm slash show up bonus and a bunch of numbers also we have a very special webinar tomorrow it's a webinar that's sponsored by one of our advanced programs scientist MBA this is a program that teaches you all of the advanced MBA level concepts that you would learn in top MBA programs but apply to STEM industries so the biotechnology pharmaceutical biopharmaceutical medical devices healthcare etc all of it is specifically for you PhDs or case studies are specific in these industries it's the MBA level concepts like economics and operations management things that you have not had any exposure to very very likely it's taught by top NBA's top PhDs it's one of our most popular programs you can learn more about it by going to cheeky scientist comm / s MBA – learn dashboard this will show you everything you need to know about the program at this point and then enrollment opens on Monday you can see the board of MBAs you get a board back certificate when you pass this program there's a special webinar tomorrow though and you can sign up for that webinar on this final link that we're gonna give you this webinar is specifically on mergers acquisitions takeover overs and restructuring obviously in the biotechnology the pharmaceutical industry may be not so obvious to you but there's a lot of mergers and acquisitions a lot of restructurings these things are happening all the time you may not realize it if you're up for a job somewhere if you're getting hired you have to ask yourself why are they hiring it's very likely because maybe they've merged with an company or their restructuring internally or they're launching a new product line okay all of these topics are going to be covered on this webinar we're also going to cover industry hierarchy the difference between private and public companies startups corporations all of its covered on this webinar it's tomorrow Thursday June 20th at 1:00 p.m. Eastern Standard Time you sign up by going to this page Chiefs and scientists comm slash mergers – and – acquisitions – webinar so cheeky science calm mergers and acquisition are cheeky scientist – all of these links will be available for you in the post show notes and they're available for you now in the comment box whether you're watching this on zoom or any of our other live-streaming locations so again thank you all for being here just for showing up live we like to give you that free bonus we mentioned at the beginning and invite you to reserve your seat at tomorrow's webinar there are limited seats make sure that you go to this page and sign up now learning from Toph MBAs about mergers and acquisitions and things that you really need to know before you go on we always want to invite you over to the cheeky scientist blog cheeky scientist calm slash blog you can see what's trending we publish a lot of articles all of the top content that's online that has to do with getting a job advancing in your career for PhDs is here you don't to go anywhere else every week we posted the best we post a best of industry transition articles of the week everything online that's about that's quality information quality data on resumes on top jobs that are available what's going on macadamia current industry trend all of them are posted here weekly and then we have our own articles that we publish to the top trending article right now is this resume format gets PhDs hired five steps to writing a functional resume you don't know what a functional resume is I often call your relevancy resume because you're talking and about and highlighting your relevant transferable and technical skills instead of highlighting your academic job titles okay so check out this article it's very popular right now I haven't pulled up here on the screen this resume format gets phd's hired five steps to writing a functional resume if you've never heard a functional resume or relevancy resume you need to look at this article change the way you approach if you're just joining us we have a very special guest lined up for today Chris boss he is a former FBI agent he is a negotiator a negotiation expert he's gonna be talking to you about his best-selling book never split the difference and giving you negotiation strategies that you can apply for your salary negotiations he'll be on with this first then we're also gonna bring it on Nancy Khanna who isn't a regulatory writing role with sting cryogenics she's gonna talk to us about her career path we always bring on a PhD who's in a new career path to talk about how they got into that position what the position entails what they do on a day to day basis what their courage ejector he looks like and we'll take questions we're gonna jump in now to the first segment which is always the show me the data section I'm gonna bring on Jeanette MacDonald is going to walk us through some very interesting data about negotiations this is gonna set us up for bringing Chris on in just about ten minutes so bring Jeanette on now you have to make her co-host how'd you know how are you I know we have negotiated you most excited about today when it comes to Chris being on talking about salary negotiations a lot of negotiation but to hear from someone directly from them with that level of expertise is something you don't give her okay so let's jump into the data and this data was gathered by Jeanette so Thank You Jeanette and lots of great things to go through so this first figure the title is the zip recruiter annual job seeker survey it's on the zip recruiter comm blog and what the figure is looking at is an answer to a question if you are currently unemployed do you feel financial pressure to accept the first job offer you see why does this matter because a lot of you will feel a lot of pressure to accept whatever you're given after you make it through an interview you get a job offer making a bit in academia your whole life maybe you're unemployed now you're gonna feel that pressure it's normal Jeanette can you walk us through this data I'll just set it up for people who are listening to us by audio it's a bunch of bar graphs and on the next axis or different age groups 18 to 24 all the way up to 75 or older sent three different colors Negro a bar graph not sure for one color no for another and then yes yeah this is a really interesting question to have asked right so are these people feeling pressure just take what they can get because they're so worried that they need the money right now right that they can't be asking for anything else right and what they found is that as people bought older this pressure went away right so in the younger two brackets you know or like three brackets I guess between 18 to 44 right these people feel about 50% of these people felt the pressure that they needed to accept that first job offer their finances worth so that they had to do that and I think that this is valuable because they just felt this pressure right this doesn't actually mean that they needed to accept the first offer and I think as someone who probably feels this way right maybe you're feeling that financial pressure especially if you're trying to leave academia or you're already unemployed and to know that you're not alone in this right there's a lot of other people who are feeling this way but to recognize that it's just a feeling right that you have there is space to always negotiate oh yeah and for those of you who are looking at this you know you can look at your age group and you can see that you know there's a lot of people who feel that pressure or not sure you're gonna feel it especially as a PhD if you've been in academia your whole life they're not just looking to PhDs here we can tell you after working with thousands of PhDs that the pressure is intense you want to accept that job offer because usually it's you know five fingers higher than what you're currently making easily so it's really really important for you to ignore that pressure the best you can because there's more money on the table for you to make and it's not just it's not just about getting more money it's about being paid what you're worth but you don't wanna get into a position that's gonna stunt your entire salary trajectory and career trajectory in a position where you're paid the same as somebody you know with the a bachelor's degree who has less experience or training than you so another figure from the same study the question here though is did you accept the first wage or salary offer you receive the last time you started a new job so series of bar graphs again the same age groups same percentages on the y-axis only two colors here first color negotiated for a higher pay the other color in the bar graph said accept the first offer what does this mean yeah it means that people aren't negotiating right they they aren't taking the steps to ask those simple questions and just see what's possible right and these people are missed like the majority of it in every category like you said all the way from 18 they got 75 were older on this that the majority of people in all these categories are just going ahead and accepting once the employers offering from that that first they're missing out on so much money and you know it's not it's easy to say that I mean really it's just a comfort thing people don't like to deal with uncertainty and when you've invested so much into a job search and employers we use this against you by the way which we'll talk about later when you've invested so much into a job search maybe a couple of weeks have gone by all this energy you've met everybody you start to do something called intensity matching where you're willing to sacrifice pay in exchange for the amount of time you invested into that job search and the relationships you started to build maybe right some of the emotional connection before you have with the people there the hope of just having it over and done with so you get that offering you're like oh that's good enough it's fun but you'll realize the implications of just you know any pay 10% lower will have for the next 20 years of your career cuz every new promotion is based on that last salary the numbers are it's pretty staggering 65% call that an average no matter what age group you're in it and we know there's some gender differences here – there's that Harvard Business Review study which we're not looking at here but said nine up to 97% of women don't negotiate which is incredible so how can we relieve some of that uncertainty and this is where knowledge is power you can learn what to do what to say so there's no uncertainty and just go through these steps and that's um one more figure from the same study here the question is what form of compensation is most important to you we're looking at a series of bar graphs each of them are a single color this time and there's just different types of compensation any surprises here in terms of what's the most important I don't think it's surprising but it's worth noting that the most important thing people is their salary like their base salary and I think we often get distracted especially if you're trying to work at like a fancy startup or you know large companies are bringing a signing bonus they're trying to distract you from this base salary which is the most important so you need to remember that this is what matters to first and so this this figure is good as a reminder that your base salary is the most important and it's what you should be negotiating it's very beginning yeah exactly and we talked a lot about this in the Association right we even call it a technique the set of side technique because you have employers they'll want to kind of muddy the waters which is another negotiation strategy by saying well we can't give you a higher salary but we can give you a higher 401k package or more paid vacation or a better benefits etc because that doesn't have as much of an impact as your ongoing salary the salary adds up faster it's more important so the good response to is always you know I'd really really be helpful if we could set aside everything but salary because salary is what's going to determine my so just know this will make you feel more certain than negotiating your salary focusing on that first is the most important okay so now we're looking at another study from zip recruiter also the title here is key takeaways from jolts report so this is a recent jolt report figure is job openings that exceeded unemployment in the US but really we've seen this trend worldwide which is why we're going to show this for seven straight months if we extrapolate this we all know that it's continued to climb in terms of terms of hiring you've probably heard about this maybe seen it seen in the news but seeing this constant trend of increased job openings what is that what does that say about the job market what does it say about the job candidates yeah saying that there is a huge opportunity for those job candidates to take the power ain't like you were in control it's a candidate driven market is kind of the way to talk about it that you have the opportunity to realize that there are a lot of openings and that you are a great candidate right so they need you they need you to fill that opening and you can leverage that to help you negotiate higher salary and I think this can't be overstated right now we see this just in our articles that we were showing you some of the blog articles on cheeky scientists at the beginning over the last few months the ones that are the most read articles all have to do with negotiation what does that mean for you it means that people are getting job offers a lot and it's it's a job candidates market like Jeanette said you know the balls in your court you have the advantage because of simple supply and demand and you might be thinking well that can't possibly be true because I haven't received a job offer etc that's more more than likely having to do with the fact that you're invisible to employ once you get in front of employers they're gonna want to hire you did you negotiate your current salary and most recent promotions this is the next question we look at this is at Sophia blog calm under yes you're underpaid here's why and here's what to do about it so we're looking at this four bar graphs here and it just has to do with different samplings so one's all respondents the other bar graphs for respondents who make between fifty and seventy four ka year the next one's from 75 to 100 K year and the final one so basically what we see here is that people who are paid more negotiated I think it's worse that's the biggest thing right is that people who are earning the most money are negotiating and those people know they're doing right if they know their value and they are willing to go and ask the question about you know what more can we do here and you just need to I think realizing this is just so it's so important if you want to get yourself into those higher pay brackets you're gonna have to start mediating that's the bottom line figure for me yeah and so for those of you who are looking at this and you're thinking well I really don't know if it's worth it like how much of a difference can it be I mean just look at the the trends here I mean there's a large difference between 50 and 74 ka and a hundred 150 K now if you're not a theme here place getting fathom maybe making I think that's not possible or that's some other country or just just know how it's supposed to be it's wrong though you can make that and a lot of it has to do with how well you negotiate and especially how well you negotiate that first industry salary because that's going to set the tone and kind of set that threshold and all of your promotions are going to be compared against because most employers can ask your previous employer how much you made at the end of employment or they're gonna ask you that and some of you said so it's kind of like a double negative this is the percentage people who did not negotiate okay so people who have a higher who end up getting paid more or less likely not to negotiate the next figure is which of the following ways do you use to determine what you should be compensated for what you should be compensated for your doing and there's a series of bar graphs and in per label here there's two different colors right so research online or consulting with current and former colleagues right so basically how are you finding out about the salary the first one is you know like going to salary calm or pay scale calm the second method consulting current former colleagues that's like setting up informational interviews and what's interesting here is the trend that will see you which will turn to Jeanette for but again the same kind of pay scale brackets are here it's all respondents 50 to 74 k75 299 k 100 249 k let's see here what's interesting about this yeah I really was excited when I saw this figure so they are looking at the percentage of people right who just research online to find out the salary that they should be getting or who in that 50 to 74 take it like 53 percent of people so the majority of people were just looking online right the same goes for that 75 200 K Branca they're just looking online and even for the 100 250 K bracket they're just looking online majority of them right but when we get to that elite level right people who are making more than 150 thousand dollars per year you see a blip and the majority people are asking their colleagues right so I think this is so good but we talk all the time about how important informational interviews are and how you that's the best way to get the real information you can google all you want but talking to an actual person is never going to be the same and that's just showing the value you can those people understand the value of their network and they're using it to understand their words they get paid more yeah so your network in from setting up information reviews it's the best way to really find out what you can get paid at a company versus just looking at a general pay scale sojanet thank you very much for your time really appreciate you coming on for the show me the data segment please thank Jeannette in the chat box if you haven't already and we'll make sure that all of those links are in the post show notes very excited to bring on our first guest here Chris boss I'm going to show a short bio here then we're gonna bring him on live so Chris has used his many years of experience in international crisis and high-stakes negotiation to develop a unique program and team that applies these globally proven techniques to the business world he was the lead international kidnapping negotiator for the FBI as well as the FBI's hostage negotiation representative for the National Security Council councils hostage working during chrises 24-year tenyo tenure with the bureau he was trained in the art of negotiation I only bought that VI but by Scotland Yard and Harvard Law School he has taught business negotiation in the MBA program as an adjunct professor at the University of Southern California's Marshall School of Business and at Georgetown University he has taught business negotiation at Harvard University guest lectured at the Kellogg School of Management at Northwestern University the IMD Business School of Busan Switzerland and the goats goeth go to School of Business in Frankfurt Germany so Chris is here with us I'm going to show his website incredible website make sure you check it out just go to Black Swan Ltd Black Swan Ltd this has amazing number of resources you can read log here look at their negotiation services and make sure you go today and get this book this is phenomenal I just ordered mine in fact I love Chris is working his writing book is never split the difference over 2000 reviews it's on the Amazon charts five stars I mean over 90% getting five look at this I mean this is it's been incredibly reviewed number of positive reviews highly recommend it we're gonna put the links in the chat box the post show notes but now I'm gonna go ahead and bring on Chris with us you should be able to turn on this camera here please do me a favor the chat box and welcome Chris hi Chris really really well I appreciate you being here everybody's really excited to to learn from the negotiation master we have a lot of people who never negotiated don't really know what it is makes them uncomfortable so I appreciate you being here and you can see the book in the background never split the difference congratulations on all of its success there's been good everybody involved Paul Ross ridiculously great co-author he has been great yeah somebody's I see it every the the first the first question I wanted to ask is you have this incredible negotiation background you built this curriculum how can we apply it or what are some of the principles of it that can be applied no matter what we're doing even in terms of job of negotiation hey you know it's it's pretty easy it's the books laid out and Elena in layman's terms it's not complicated it's not an academic book it's not a heavy read I mean it's learning how to say simple things like instead of no you say how am I supposed to do that I mean that's the that's the opening story in the book yeah and you know there are a lot of people that they get into the first ten pages and they go out and they start making deals right away think it's magic so it's it's pretty actionable it's it's it's a layman's poem yeah and it is very easy to to understand and sometimes I think especially for our audience we tend to overcomplicate things and we think that we have to have all the right answers but like the example you just gave asking like an open-ended question can be very powerful in negotiating so I'm curious what are some of the what are some of the phrases that you use that really get people talking alright like somebody's open-ended questions that really get their person on the other side of the table like let's say an employer in this case talking about what might be possible in terms of increasing a salary or whatever you're trying to get them to yeah well and what we do is we use questions to shape thinking we don't really use questions to gather information so my question how am I supposed to do that I'm trying to shape your thinking into looking at my position you know does that every time you're talking to you know what does it take to be successful here hmm a lot of people don't ask that question instead they ask what are you looking for in a candidate which is a stock question and a stock answer no what does it take to be successful here actually the thinking that shapes on the other side is an employer hears it and I like oh you try to make sure you're successful with us as part of our team you know when we teach us definitely we say you know what are you saying what they hear I want to say something that's gonna make you hear a bunch of other things and we've had a lot of people who took coaching job negotiations there's always an interesting panel on the other side there's always a guy and the interview panel doesn't say a word and what does it take to be successful there one of my students from Georgetown on a job interview the guy on the other side that never said a word lean lean forward and said no one ever asked us that and then he laid it out now the the magic trick that just happened at that point in time you get somebody who's telling you what does it take to be successful in that with that employer you've actually just recruited your first mentor because if they lay that out for you and they're wrong they get something at stake so what they're gonna have a tendency to do from that point along without telling you is they're gonna look out for you you know they're gonna again keep it from getting blindsided they unofficial mentors are far more important than official titles and that's how you recruit an unofficial mentor that's amazing yeah and like you said if they have if they are telling you what to do just to recap they're gonna feel responsible that if you do that that you're gonna be successful it's just a powerful way that our questions can shape stuff and everybody here who's watching you know you know the power of a question I'd like a hypothesis is a question it can direct people's thinking and their actions so that they're another another problem that I think certainly the people that are watching here myself and I'm sure you have a lot of experience with have is just the uncomfortableness of negotiating right they think that they shouldn't have to or they make excuses for themselves like oh I don't want them to take away the job offer I don't want to lose you've done some very high-stakes negotiations so how do you approach that how do you handle that fear that uncertainty how do you temper it so you can think logically yeah well you know on the moment instead of the one of those things we have never be so sure what you want that you wouldn't take something better I mean the whole light of day is to get your focus off of the objective a little bit because we'll focus your honor objective the more television you get the less you see other options and opportunities and the more you the more out of the moment you are the more you miss stuff I was coaching somebody last night and she was really you know what if this happened you know this didn't work out last time I mean I said look at this some of the readers walking a tightrope walk a tightrope the guy walking the tightrope doesn't look at the other side of the Grand Canyon where he wants to go because he's gonna fall off the rope he gets down on his feet he focuses on each step make sure each step is right and lo and behold he's on the other side so you get a lot better if you just get into the moment keeps your hand out of where this is going what if this happens as a disaster and those are all distractions as soon as you get into the moment and realize there's a lot of space between yes and no I don't have to say yes I don't have to say no I can just respectfully explore and clarify without accepting or rejecting anything and a possibility is really low yeah I like that word explore that's a great way to think about it what what just might be possible it's just a conversation and it takes the pressure off you know sometimes we often hear focus on your goal but I think in this case you know I really have to ask you I'm curious given all of your experiences there has there been a time when you were in a negotiation yourself or one you know maybe working with somebody you mentor where something happened one of those magic negotiation moments and then you didn't even realize what happened until afterwards and somehow they shifted their perspective or just you know any of those kind of really career highlights that you might be able to mention that we're always trying to create those moments I mean you know my son is my Director of Operations Brandon bloss he's turned into a superstar in his early 30s he even deal with the hostage negotiator since he was two right so he's gotten pretty good at like in a minute but you know he likes to say we're trying to create a series of emotional moments one of those emotional moments you know the emotional moment of feeling of bonding and so as a general tournament and the big one that that we didn't realize in the mall at the moment was the whole basis for the book what's better than yes from the other side what do you really want to hear from the other side the word you want to hear from the other side of that's right I mean that's right it's what people say when they're a thousand percent on board with you hmm you know when you hear something you completely believed in the Saints that's right I mean you've fully resonated and you get that out of anybody and well we're kind of looking at kidnapping in the Philippines terrorist killers murderer sociopaths on the other sides gotten American they're asking for this ridiculous ransom demand of ten million dollars but it's not ransom it's war what damages 500 years of oppression from all the different colonial powers that have gone through the Philippines now of course this is nonsense but this is what everybody does when they're making arguments where the position is and all that will supporter there's evil and secure but the position it's not throwing that stuff the past doesn't matter doesn't matter who's 500 years ago I mean everybody here has been an argument with somebody where you say yourself wait a minute this I was even here with this stuff that was a guy before me it doesn't stop people from doing it so you know we flatted with this for a little while and then go straight on coaching I finally say look you know what we're gonna do we're gonna you know that's right out of our tariffs you're gonna summarize his perspective not ours we're not gonna make an army and we're not gonna count argue we're gonna say everything this person is said and we're gonna save their arguments more passionately than they've said them to us we're gonna be fearless and we're gonna keep saying their arguments passionately until this social past says that's right I write this up in a document and at the time I just look at this is 101 and you know negotiations what we now call tactical empathy 101 I'm just trying to hit the reset switch my gets on the phone with the terrorists two days later lays it all up no you don't want ransom we don't war damage is an economic all 500 music Spanish to the Japanese to be mad it's all this nonsense right lays it on too thick which leaves the other side with nothing to say except and we went from ten million dollars to zero in the woods that's right came out of that terrorist ransom demand woman Wow so now your book does a great job of taking something like that and usually get down to a concept or a principle yeah you know I can go do it a job interview and so yeah so how can i how can I get it that's right out of the person sitting across from me and at a site visit when they give me some you know a salary and they use something like oh there's a salary cap or any of these things that they try to say to get you from negotiating you know what what can you do to to count that kind of bonding moment with with an employer yeah it's it's actually really simple you know it's just stuff that we're afraid to say I mean that you guys are restricted I mean you guys are under a lot of pressure you know you got a lot of people inside your company that you really like them the good people but you you know you've disappointed them and you're worried that you're gonna bring somebody else in they really like with a great resume but they've been an underperform I mean you guys want to take your company to the next level and you want people that are committed to taking you to the next level employees that are not self-assured and that's just looking out for themselves at all you know what's in it for me you know you don't want people that are saying that to themselves you want people that are saying to themselves what's in it for us how do we get to the next level how do we do a better job feeding our families put our families in better houses put their kids in better schools how do we succeed as a group your employer potential employers they're just gonna be blown away by it and that's that that's right moment that's when the the what are you saying what they hear and what they hear is this person wants to make a success this person wants to help me and the better life for my family and my children better future for my children and that makes you immeasurably valuable and also gives you the opportunity now what do you want out of that employer you want to be involved in key strategic projects you want to build your career you want those your resume so that if they don't promote you your experience with them is so phenomenal that you go and say it's up to the highest bidder yeah and then and for those of you watching we talk about that a lot you know how can you reframe it for yourself that the Bulls really in your court and you're not begging I have two last questions for you one is for people that are just anxious people like they're watching like I'm never gonna be a hostage negotiator you know I have trouble just you know maybe having a conflict with another person during the day what advice do you have you know in the book yourself on people who are just generally anxious to help them get through a negotiation without you know resisting it too much yes most things practice for high-stakes result I mean you know Tiger Woods and then when the Masters last time around by waiting to the Masters to get out on the golf course you know he's having a putting green he said on the driving range he's engaging in the process where there's no space whatsoever small stakes nothing at stake so we can we can practice he can get his reps down and get his muscle memory up what am I talking about engaging the Starbucks employee with a little bit of engaging banker you know you lyft driver you know see what it takes to get it that's right out of a lift drive you're sending the left for you know anywhere from seven to twenty five minutes anyway work on their unsuspecting small stakes and the most dangerous negotiation is the one you don't know you rent I get this kind of did this website called secrets tell me your secrets anonymous he gets a brand-new coffee cup from the Starbucks employee because the question is are you in a negotiation with an or don't call the Starbucks employees sent him a note I give decaf to people who are mean that was a negotiation right everybody met with you you know everybody out there that you think you're developing a tolerance for caffeine maybe you're being mean to you that's amazing last question I have so we have a lot of so we have a lot of PhD a lot of driven people and when we do you know our little kind of negotiation exercises sometimes you see a that competitive drive kick in right and they have a real hard time you know myself included when I was doing my first negotiations where I don't understand win-win like I just want to win and you think like you have to get what you want so how how can you help us and you know you can end on this how can you help us get into that more relaxed frame of mind or whatever mindset we need to be in for win-win the goldman sachs exact for way back us lady I think was named to say greedy yes but long hungry hmm how do I get out of short-term gain long-term losses into steady long-term gang Tom Girardi is a phenomenal trial attorney I'm living in a light lives in LA now superstar superstar blue collar nothing starting out now billionaire Tom Girardi she's on the other side of the table from you you better give it time drawings description and negotiations he says the secret to negotiation is being nice and Shepard you do it Tom Girardi you feel phenomenal about the outcome you don't feel like you lost I'm smart enough to know that how does he go from being a you know this blue-collar lower middle-class Jewish kid to literally being a billionaire you know you're not rolling up your enemies you're not rolling up the tally of people that feel beaten by you and then want to turn around and get you back the secret to when win is you know and time doesn't give anything either you know this you know Oprah doesn't give in easy Oprah's a sweetheart how to be nice and not giving that's the real key you do with Oprah you don't Tom or Warren Buffett nobody feels like they lost when they interact with those people but the ends people get their way and then Oprah it's not a pushover Tom's not a pushover Warren Buffett's not a pushover you don't make the other side feel the beat if you want ridiculous long-term success and it's really how did you make the other side fill in the classes Chris thank you so much for your time I know how busy you are congratulations on all the books success really appreciate we have my pleasure thanks for having me thanks please do me a favor and thank Chris in the chat box or wherever you're watching us live right now also do me a favor and go get Chris's book do yourself a favor go get Chris's book nervous but the difference amazing now be nice in general never give in the book is called never split the difference negotiating as if your life thank you bye bye okay so we'll get all these links in the chat box for you one more time and we'll be sure to put them in to the post show notes as well you can go to Chris's website Black's black swuan and make sure you reach out to Chris on his website or on LinkedIn tell him you saw him at cheeky scientist so the chat box was very very active hopefully you all enjoyed that we're gonna go right to our next guest we're gonna be zeroing in on a specific career track now this is what we do every radio show they bring in or external leadership Destin let me bring on somebody a PhD who comes through our cheeky scientist Association is working in industry now to talk about that career path so that you can start to understand all the options you have out there for yourself in industry sometimes you can feel like there's only one or two job options you know something similar to what you're doing there's a lot of different career paths and today we have Nancy Akana she is a PhD in a regulatory writer at extinct regenexx a certain company where she prepares clinical documentation for national regulatory agencies her assessment of the safety and efficiency of drugs for inspiration stemmed during their post doctoral studies in the drug discovery group at the University of Pennsylvania she became interested in the final stages of drug development stage she's a big fan of Harry Potter in the cotton hat who put her LinkedIn page here just go to linkedin.com slash science – Nancy Donna please do me a favor in the chat box the comment box wherever you're watching and say hello to Nancy how are you I'm good how are you doing very well thanks for joining us thanks for taking some time to talk about your career thank you for inviting me I'm so excited to be here yeah so the the field of regulatory affairs very much providing these are growing quickly just because of the increased regulation and kind of the balances between making sure you're following how did you find out about this career path how did you get interested in so as i'm as you've been out in my bio very kindly i started getting interested in medical writing specifically during my postdoctoral years at the university of pennsylvania i started to look at careers away from the bench because i realized pretty early on during my postdoc then more than actually doing the experiment this is in no way looking down at anyone who loves the bench because I did as well but I more enjoyed actually analyzing them and it didn't matter to me whether the data was mine or someone else's at a paper but that seemed more exciting to me than actually doing the experiment myself I started to look at ways in which I could leave the bench but still be associated with the science part of it but I could still see that data like data driven careers but not necessarily generating the data myself and so medical writing came up now medical writing can be of two kinds one is the regulatory path which I took and the other one is just regular medical writing where you could be doing posters manuscripts you know a lot of the kind of writing but I being in the top discovery group realized that not only do I like analysis of theta but I like to keep up to date with what's happening in the world of drug development and so how I chose the regulatory path and sort of looking specifically at how I could stay within the realm of regulatory writing of course to just you know just medical writing in general you know and I think a lot of us haven't had a lot more exposure to this career path it's easy to talk to people instead of informational interviews with people now that are there but it's it's still fairly new in terms of the size of it so I think it's a it's a great path for you to build if you want to get into you know regulatory fairs medical affairs maybe just want to start by writing regulatory writing it can lead to a lot of open doors so I'm gonna come back to kind of your you know the next steps or career trajectory in a little bit but I wanna talk to you about what did the path the the job search path looked like for this specific career how did you find out about it to start through networking information or abusement what did the interview process the club with their writing test sure so I have to say off the bat that this this job specifically did not result from networking but I have to say because I know a lot of new chi-chi's were going to be miss made that networking does not just mean getting a job and working also means zeroing in on what you think you might enjoy doing for trying to find out whether you really enjoy doing it or not so for me networking man finding out about the careers that would take me off the bench none of mine none of the people in my network although they helped a lot resulted in this job specifically but that network that I've built over my postdoctoral years really helped me hone in on the fact that this is what I want to do that's how my network helped me specifically on this job I actually found out and I think all medical writers and aspiring medical writers should know about the hit list which is run by a monocles very seasoned medical writer she has a list that goes out I think I'm not sure if it's every week or every month but if you get on that list there's a lot of resources for medical providers and also post job openings on that and that is how I found out about this job opening it was little people mind going to me that the job that was advertised was literally five minutes away from where I live and I really couldn't believe it when I first saw it so that is how I actually ended up where I am but that being said I think what is important is even if you're not going through your network you have an updated clean resume that you immediate east send to the recruiter at the company because that's what I did I was still in the process of making it a cheeky resume but it was still in a place where I could send it to them with a focus on my role as an editor and my focus on the role as a collaborator during my postdoc for years everything that they really wanted from their job posting and so I thought that was also instrumental in kind of getting me where I am now and then yeah just in just to recap so then you found out about the job right yes yeah you applied you get did you get a phone screen first did you have video interviews or writing to us to have the next I had a phone screen where their HR just to kind of gauge my interest why I was interested in this position and why I was interested in fighting when I had no background in writing you know coming from a science background why do you want to transition into this career what's your interest like you know things like that you know which one is do you want to be a witch you will be willing to be located you need to know things things like that general questions but important all the same age the interest of the person who's applying for the job after that screening interview I had a writing test which was a timed test and I think having given a lot of different kind of writing tests or medical writing careers I have seen different kinds and it just really depends on the company that you need to meet or there's no real set there's no real set wait to prepare yourself for these you may be given a writing test over an email to complete over a couple of days mine was a two-hour time test which meant that I have to do it within that platform within that time after which it would just shut itself off so it just it just varies from company to company I guess well what and what did that specific test question look like was did he give you like something to read and then you had to write a certain amount of words or what it was it was patient data and I had to create narratives for that data so it was a lot of numbers and I had to bring it down to what exactly those numbers said so I have to narrate what happened to that patient from day one perfect and so you took the test did you have a site visit I did have a site visit so immediately after I did the test I was invited for an on-site and this was three hours I would say meetings with you know senior writers and just a little bit so I could get an idea of you know how they have come in and how they feel about it I was given one more just but that was more of formatting and not writing specifically so more to see if I could just follow instructions if I was given something a document to format and I was towards the end of the interview and so and then you got the job and now what do you do on a day-to-day basis how much writing each day is it office/home both how does it work it's both I do work from home if I need to but I enjoy being in the office and I want to say this feel that a writer does only that which is right I have come to realize that this job is a lot of project management it's a lot of talking to people it's a lot of negotiation that Chris talked about before in terms of trying to get your client to kind of feel the same pages you try to understand what they want from you and try to put your point across at the same time how do we very tight deadlines that they can change from you know literally being a very relaxed kind of oh I'm going to sit and write for the repair – oh my goodness something has happened drop this pick this up because this has to go out right now so it really varies from day to day but on an average it starts with me you know kind of going through my emails to see if any of the documents that I'm working on have you know anything you come up if not then typically depending on the number of projects that I'm on I prioritize them on the basis of when they're due when trans are supposed to go out if I need to send them quality control and then you know the day evolves with a little bit of writing there are a bunch of meetings thrown in with the client or with in with the company itself you know things like that so I really have to say that I I'm not an extrovert but if you are super super introverted person this job to say I think you know just about any job in industry there is going to be the communication aspect coordination can't see it as just a refuge where you can stay yes yes final question what is the career trajectory look like where do you see people going that move from writers writing roles do they go to other writing roles can you go into I think what you know you could either go into just beyond writing which means you just pull your writing skills in terms of writing all you can go project management and leadership roles as well where you will be managing fighters you to be the face of the client you know all those writers and so there's different ways to go I know people who have just you know taken you know gone away from this and you know affairs in companies rather than co-owns because a company that philippi your kindness also has a regulatory fiber at the other end and so you know they're different ways that you can go but it seems like there's a lot of flexibility in the paths that you can take and that's something I really like well Nancy thank you very much for your time thanks for sharing your experience with us and congratulations again on your transition thank you so much Isaiah thank you thank you please do we thank Nancy the chat box if you haven't already and please tell her hello and thank her wherever you're watching the live stream you can also go to her LinkedIn profile which again we'll put in the post show notes it in the chat boxes go ahead and connect with her because those connections are powerful and the more PhDs can be connected to each other the better as more and more pasties get into industry your options will continue to increase so again thank you man see this Texas to the end of the public portion of our radio show if you're watching us publicly stay tuned for our next radio show we are about every other Wednesday every second or third Wednesday 1:00 p.m. Eastern Standard Time we have a lot of great guests lined up over the summer so make sure you go to PhDs get hired comm to put your name and email on that page PhD in higher comm you'll get all of our info all of our job search insights and you'll get our radio show notifications to remember we do have a special webinar tomorrow a scientist MBA sponsored webinar and mergers that grenade and acquisitions takeovers restructurings if you want to learn more about high stakes activities that can happen in industry which include a lot of the high stakes negotiations between companies we're gonna be talking about tomorrow June 20th at 1:00 p.m. Eastern Standard Time so make sure you sign up for that thanks everyone and we'll see you at the next cheeky scientist radio show all right so we're gonna say hi to YouTube to thank you YouTube for watching and be sure to join us here again let us know if you have any comments

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